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Talk:Romulan history
PNA Isn't this all we really know about Romulan History? If it is, then why is it a stub? :No, it's not. Why? Because it stops at 2161. There's another 200 years to fill in. -- Michael Warren | ''Talk'' 17:25, Sep 2, 2004 (CEST) :: Had to continue expanding until the year 2379 in which the new praetor, Shinzon, assassinated the Romulan Senate and eventually planned mass genocide. 23rd & 24th centuries needing expansion/attention When compared to Cardassian history or Klingon history, this article is way below its potential. I've added pna-incomplete to the section on the 23rd century as the events from "The Enterprise Incident" are not sufficiently elaborated on. The lines on any theoretical Romulan-Klingon Alliance should also be cleaned up, like it was done in the article on Klingon history. Moreover, "Undiscovered Country" is just addressed by a mere remark. The section on the 24th century needs a pna-message due to it being largely fragmentary and too brief. The events in "Image in the Sand", "Shadows and Symbols" and "Inter Arma Silent Leges" are not/insufficiently dealt with. Furthermore, most of the remarks on the Voyager are insignificant. The rest should be integrated into the Dominion War-section. --36ophiuchi 00:05, August 6, 2011 (UTC) Suggestion for deletion * Romulan history -- move any valuable information over to Romulan or Romulan Star Empire and delete this page. Alex Peckover 10:21, Aug 10, 2004 (CEST) *Keep. This page surely needs some expansion and probably an accuracy check, but I don't think it should be deleted. Several "* History" pages already exist, I guess the Romulans 'deserve' one as well. Don't delete, but list on Memory Alpha:Pages needing attention instead. -- Cid Highwind 12:41, 10 Aug 2004 (CEST) ::Shouldn't the other History pages be merged with their parent articles, then ? Alex Peckover 12:56, Aug 10, 2004 (CEST) :::I don't think so. For example, the Human page discusses human society in Star Trek, Earth discusses their home world, and Human history is a short summery of humanity's history. The same thing goes for the Klingon, the Cardassian, the Breen pages... Why would this Romulan history page be deleted than? Ottens 13:13, 10 Aug 2004 (CEST) :I agree with Ottens. There's no need to merge articles if there's enough to say about a specific topic (such as the history of the major Trek species). In this case I'd prefer to have separate pages instead of one huge article (see also: Wiki is not paper). Of course that doesn't mean that we need to have a history page for every Alien of the week. -- Cid Highwind 17:32, 10 Aug 2004 (CEST) *I vote to keep the page on Romulan History. With time it could be expanded and eventually become really helpful. I think it's better having a separate article from the main Romulan page, that way the page isn't too "heavy". Krevaner 18:55, 10 Aug 2004 (CEST) *It seems to me the discussion has been setled, with the creation of additional History articles and all. I suggest we remove this entry, and bring it up again in a week or two if people still have complaints. -- Redge | ''Talk'' 14:56, 11 Aug 2004 (CEST) Naming Romulus In the article it states: : ...planets later named Romulus and Remus by the first Humans to visit them. I understand it's a "fan tradition" or whatever to have Romulus and Remus named by humans. But, I don't think any humans "visited" Romulus until maybe the late 23rd century (sometime between 2268 and 2293). Romulans weren't really seen before 2266, and the name "Romulan" is described by Hoshi as a word in the Romulan language in "Minefield". Now, that's the crux of my argument. If both Hoshi and T'Pol recognize the word "romulan" as a non-human term, then it's safe to assume that "Romulus" and probably "Remus" have non-human origins. Unless "Unification" proves me wrong, I believe it is probably just an incredible Hodgkin's coincidence. Unless of course some pre-Surak Vulcans visited Earth in 800 BC and started the Roman Republic.--Tim Thomason 00:09, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) :: Or they have visited 892-IV at any time to learn of Roman mythology. --TOSrules 00:15, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) ::*T'POL: "And their next message?" ::*HOSHI: "They say they've annexed this planet in the name of something called The Romalin Star Empire." ::*T'POL: "Romulan. It's pronounced Romulan." ::Maybe the whole "Romulus and Remus"-thing was made up by someone at starfleet after this incident. We don't know. --Memory 00:29, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) Okay, so the word that the Romulans call themselves sounds something between "rom-ah-lin" and "rom-yoo-lin" (I'll take Hoshi's word over T'Pol's anyday when it deals with linguistics), and you're saying that somewhere between 2152 and 2160, Starfleet might have decided to extrapolate a fake planetary name of "Romulus" instead of "Romula" or something. And they lucked out when they discovered that their was a twin planet, and they decided to name it "Remus." That seems somewhat plausible, but I think that since there seems to be no canon evidence to suggest that Humans named the planet Romulus (other than some people's faulty idea of "common sense"), then it should be removed. Since the article specifically cites "Unification" as the source for humans-naming Romulus, I think someone should either confirm it or remove it based on those episodes.--Tim Thomason 00:42, 14 Sep 2005 (UTC) A fresh start While working on the history section of the Romulan Star Empire, I realized that stuff really belongs here. I cleaned up the 22nd-24th Centuries as best I could, but I've left the Early History alone. Info regarding Time of Awakening and the diaspora is too vague and scattered for me to compile just now. Perhaps someone else has a good idea about how to clean-up that portion. --Aurelius Kirk 02:07, 13 March 2006 (UTC) :I added more information about the 24th century, adding events between the Romulan reemergence in "The Neutral Zone" and their actions in the Dominion War, mostly TNG stuff. I didn't touch the Early History either.Mste0819 17:15, 22 April 2007 (UTC) Naming Romulus and Remus The article states that the planets Romulus and Remus were given these names after the Romulans landed there. I don't think there was any reference in the shows or movies about when the two planets were named, simply that they were named that. -- Preator 13:32, January 3, 2008 (CST) Peer review Let's start a peer review, as this article underwent a nice development over the past months. Anyone with suggestions, comments as to how the article may be further improved? --36ophiuchi 17:49, 29 July 2008 (UTC) Removed note I removed: * "In Spock's dialogue from , it is suggested that the Romulans are in fact descended from a Vulcan colony established before the time of Surak, whose isolated location meant that the Vulcans living on Romulus and Remus never became aware of Surak's teachings." While I agree that Spock did say "Vulcan, like Earth, had its aggressive colonizing period. Savage, even by Earth standards. And if Romulans retain this martial philosophy, then weakness is something we dare not show." That doesn't suggest what the removed entry states...aside from the fact that Surak wasn't even established at that point, later established (and contradicts the removed statement) stating that a huge faction of the population "marched beneath the raptor's wings" against the teachings of Surak, and killed him using atomic weaponry. --Alan 07:38, 26 December 2008 (UTC) :"The Forge" didn't say anything about that said faction being the early Romulans - it's a vague reference that doesn't refute anything. Spock clearly said that 1). Vulcans colonized other worlds during their violent era, 2). The Romulans apparently retain this savage nature. From this we can logically conclude that the Romulans are Vulcans who established a colony but never got word of Surak or his teachings. It's the clearest and best canon explanation for the Romulan's origins that we've had thus far. There has been nothing solidly nailed down in dialogue in any Star Trek episode that would refute this assumption - and Diane Duane's books aren't canon. The note should stay; I'm not saying that it should be added as the official story in the article and that the whole thing should be rewritten, but there's nothing wrong with a tiny note at the bottom of the page. -User:Promus Kaa 08:13, 26 December 2008 (UTC) ::You are making a speculative link and extrapolation that there is no basis for. Spock did not say that these colonies had "not heard Surak or his teachings." Hell, he never even gave a time frame for the colonization. There is nothing that supports your notion, and a lot that essentially refutes it. If "marching under the raptors wings" isn't a reference to Romulans, who paint "bird of prey" on their ships and march under the banner of the bird of prey (raptor means "bird of prey"), I don't know what is. You say there is no basis to say that those in "The Forge" were Romulans? I say to you that there is even less basis for what you suggest. --OuroborosCobra talk 08:41, 26 December 2008 (UTC) :My "speculative link and extrapolation" certainly has more basis than the one you're making about the "marching under the raptor's wings" being a reference to the Romulans. And I never said that Spock said they "had not heard Surak or his teachings;" I clearly stated what Spock said, and what can be logically concluded from what he said. I'll say it again if you didn't read my previous entry thoroughly enough: 1) Vulcans colonized other planets during their period of violence (he doesn't mention Surak, or the Time of Awakening, but we know that he's referring to the time before that...obviously, so HE DID GIVE A TIME FRAME FOR THE COLONIZATION), and that finally 2) The Romulans apparently retain their warlike nature (whereas the rest of the Vulcan people have abandoned their violent ways). I think the meaning of his words are pretty clear, and you still haven't said anything that refutes the information from "Balance of Terror." And it's JUST A NOTE; I could imagine this kind of resistance if I were suggesting that the entire article were changed, but I don't see anything wrong with adding a tiny little note at the ass-end of the page that does not affect your dangerously close to being non-canon interpretation of Romulan history (as put forth by Diane Duane). -User:Promus Kaa 16:44, 26 December 2008 (UTC) ::How about a compromise. Spock's speculation is definetly good information for this page, so a rewording that eliminates all speculation on our part and doesn't state anything that is not canon could be something like. In 2266, Spock speculated Romulans to be Vulcans who have retained the ancient Vulcan martial philosophy of savage and aggressive colonization. --Pseudohuman 17:17, 26 December 2008 (UTC) :::conflict Promus Kaa: ::: (1) I don't know what Diane Duane has to do with anything at all. You're the only one talking about novels here. ::: (2) The "dangerously close to non-canon interpretation" which you're howling about is well-cited from canon sources. That makes a difference. Canon doesn't (as far as I know) contradict your interpretation, but it definitely doesn't confirm it either - and that's why it's not canon, but only an "interpretation". It's one speculative possibility. :::(3) MA:NOT says, regarding "Personal speculation", "if we don't know, then leave it out". There's no evidence that Vulcans only colonized other worlds before Surak, there's no evidence that the Vulcan colonists who became the Romulans "never became aware of Surak's teachings", and there is evidence that Surak's teachings did not "convert" all Vulcans - to his atomically mortal detriment. All this means that what in your note you say is "suggested" according to is only speculation, and it's not the "very obvious conclusion" required by the Speculation Test on Memory Alpha:Content policy FAQ, because "we don't make up any information". :::Welcome to MA, please check out more of the links in your Welcome Message and have no hard feelings. :::Lastly: Pseudohuman's suggestion sounds good to me, except that as written it is sounding like Spock had speculated that Romulans were Vulcans (a known item), rather than having speculated on whether or not the Romulans had retained their warlike nature (the unknown item). --TribbleFurSuit 17:42, 26 December 2008 (UTC) :I can dig a compromise. Maybe instead of it being under "Note," we can put it under "Apocrypha." Instead of putting what I originally wrote in there, we can say In 2266, Spock stated that Vulcan had a period of colonization during his people's warlike stage, and that the Romulans may have retained the ancient Vulcan martial philosophy of savage and aggressive colonization. From this, some fans have concluded that Romulus and Remus were Vulcan colonies established before the time of Surak, and due to their isolated location, never became aware of Surak or the Time of Awakening. Is that acceptible? Remember that it would be under the heading "Apocrypha." :I mention Diane Duane because in her book, "The Romulan Way," she dedicates every other chapter to describing the "Vulcan Exodus" due to disagreements with Surak's teachings. Since her book was admittedly awesome and fairly well-known within the fan circle, her interpretation became equally well-known, and it seems that a lot of people have looked at Romulan history under her assumption, despite the fact that nowhere did it say in any episode that the Romulans left Vulcan during the Time of Awakening because they disagreed with Surak. --Promus Kaa 26 December 2008 (UTC) ::::Just wanted to say that we can't put it under "apocrypha," as that section is only for information from licensed non-canon works such as books and video games. This information is from a canon episode, so it must either be under a "background" section or italicized and separated from the non-italicized, in-universe text. However, since the note is not actually background info but rather quoted speculation from a character, that would actually go into the main (non-italicized) part of the article. --From Andoria with Love 08:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC) Romulan-Breen relations This may be just speculation, but I think that one of the things that kept the Romulans busy during their periods of isolation could have been conflicts with the Breen. Historically, the Breen have been formidable enemies, having defeated the Klingons during their Second Empire. The Romulans have a proverbial saying, "Never turn your back on a Breen", and Thot Pran was promised Romulus after the Dominion War. -- Connor Cabal 14:11, 10 June 2009 (UTC) Removed Speculation *''It is unknown at this time what consequences the destruction of Romulus had on the Empire; there is only speculation.'' Removed again. — Morder (talk) 17:20, October 30, 2009 (UTC) removed text I removed the folowing: As much as I like the books this comes from, they are not production sources and thus not permissible as background.Capt Christopher Donovan 11:51, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :They're licensed novels and therefore valid as an apocryphal note. I have thus returned it. Having said that, it would be preferable if the note stated which novels said this. – Cleanse ( talk | ) 12:29, September 5, 2010 (UTC) ::Probably one of the Rihannsu novels. --OuroborosCobra talk 13:03, September 5, 2010 (UTC) Then it needs to be clearly labled as Apocrypha and not formatted background. The book in question is "The Romulan Way".Capt Christopher Donovan 13:13, September 5, 2010 (UTC) :::The bginfo template is for use with all background information, including apocrypha. - 13:50, September 5, 2010 (UTC) dominion war the dominion war and voyager sections give the impression that the events of Message in a Bottle happened after the war ended, which is of course untrue per the emh's lines in the episode 05:00, May 28, 2011 (UTC) Romulus Destroyed I don't think that the last part about Romulus' destruction is correct. I think it should be listed as an alternate timeline because Star Trek Online still has Romulans-- 20:21, August 14, 2011 (UTC) :That part is taken from , in which it is not depicted as being from an alternate timeline. Star Trek Online (besides not being canon at all) even has a location where the debris of Romulus can be visited. -- Cid Highwind 20:30, August 14, 2011 (UTC)